Before i start i would like it noted this is not a flame or meant as an attack to the drupal commuity but just my observations after 1 week of drupal.

I've tried out many CMS systems and ran quite a few in post production sites for many years. I did indeed check out drupal many moons ago and was, quite frankly, less than impressed. I'm happy to say that this view has changed considerably.

I love the interface and in 4.7 RCx the ease of use of installing modules. I also like the flexibility the system brings with it and so far, all in all, the experiance has been quite rewarding.

One thing i must note however is the terms and acronymns used that are very confusing to new members, Nodes, taxonomy (still no idea what that means) and even head are extremely confusing. More confusing is the reliance on linux patches when im not running linux or have a dedicated server.

Granted CVS is normal for linux users but not so for windows savvy website developers. This sometimes causes inevitable frustration.

To give you an example.

I was running 4.6.6 but had actually tested the platform out on an online demo that was obviously running 4.7 RCx. After sometime in development of my site it was obvious some of the modules i needed had better capabilities in 4.7 and so i upgraded.

Obviously due to these being Pre production builds inevitable errors became apparant and of i went to find resolves. This is when i suddenly realised i was in a very different world, this aint cansas toto.

So looking through modules i had issues with sometimes revealed solutions but i had no idea how to implement them. A patch in linux is easy to apply it would seem but windows it becomes a nightmare. I tried following many of the documentations in drupal (which i may add are plentaful if a little difficult to find specifics) and fell short again and again.

I just today upgraded to 4.7 RC 4 as hotmail was not receiving emails from my 4.7 RC3 site, which cured that problem and then presented one where navigating to a forum and selecting "create new forum post," the forum container is autoselected from the drop-down menu instead instead of the forum itself. So i looked in the bugs section and found it had been reported (after i had tried searching on the forums, and then posting about it incase it was a new setting i had missed).

I was delighted to see it had been resolved and then frustrated once more that the response was :-

Status: active » fixed

fixed in HEAD more than a day ago.

So off i went again and searched HEAD. Some frustration later i find that HEAD is the term used for the development version of drupal but i have absolutely no idea where or how i get this version or some fix for the issue above.

As you can see from a non technical point of view drupal for a first week member can, in retrospect, be both a rewarding and incredible frustrating experiance. I seem to fix one, drop two at the moment but the site is developing along.

What i would suggest however is that the usuage of these terms either simplified or at least explained in an easier form for new members to find. Maybe a popup glossary link when a term is in the body of a message with a brief explaination and a link to the main page that explains it more.

For now i'll soldier on as i truly do love drupal at this stage. But i know that frustration lies around the next corner when i again face a bug with a solution i cannot understand.

I hope people understand why i posted this and i hope its seen more as support than critiscm.

Comments

killes@www.drop.org’s picture

Sorry, but if you insist on using the developer version you will have to learn some developer terms and tools. If you don't want that (and it is totally ok to not want it) then you should stick with the stable release even if it doesn't have all the features you want.
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desm0n’s picture

The point im trying to make is that many will want and actually need to use the latest versions either to cure bugs or for the facilities it brings. However the terms used by developers are confusing. As i say ive used many other CMS systems and online forums software and only drupal has me stumped when it comes to terms.

Its very easy saying RAM and ROM when you are fully comfortable with the terms and meaning, But say that to a non computer savvy person and they'll look at you dumb founded, why make it harder for new members ?

Nodes for instance is, unless im missing the point, content ? Then why on earth just not call it content ?

Same with taxonomy, as far as i understand it thats a catagory.

Again please excuse my ignorance as im new in the seat so to speak but if you want drupal to be more widely used you'll need new members taking it up. Its certainly powerfull but these "developer" terms do not aid ease of use.

killes@www.drop.org’s picture

The point im trying to make is that many will want and actually need to use the latest versions either to cure bugs or for the facilities it brings.

The latest release is 4.6.6. Period. This is the version you should use in nearly all cases. That is why it is a release. None of the 4.7 betas and release candidates are releases.

We call nodes nodes since at least Drupal 3.0 and have no desire to change this. Every system needs some sort of lingo that refers to technical parts of it. Taxonomy is also more than just "categories" as you soon will discover.

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desm0n’s picture

Again i disagree to a point, god im sounding argumentative now :)

The RC releases are Release Candidates so are ment for public testing. Im not saying they should or even could be bug free as thats why an RC is an RC afterall.

Also its clearly labelled under the Latest Release section on the frontpage ready to download. I very much doubt many webmasters will download an older release when so much is changing to the new candidates. Even opensourcecms.com is using a RC test platform (where i originally tried drupal before coming over).

Your point about nodes was nodes since 3.0 is fine and i accept you can call anything anything you wish. However what you have done is increase the learning curve to new members for no apparant reason. I'm not saying thats wrong or right, i'm telling you how it is from my point of view.

Regards Taxonomy i appreciate i ill understand its full function and hope it will come in time.

The point im trying to make is that the project has great support and is very active but from an admins point of view, new to the project, its frustrating knowing there are solutions to problems encountered that you don't know how to implement,

Granted as i develop further in the drupal community these problems become less and less as i understand how things work better but the point i'm trying to make generally is that from a new member, it can be cunfusing due to the assumption that the members are already in the "know" and could turn away new members to the community. I'm sure thats not the intent of the project.

I hope you can at least understand that.

killes@www.drop.org’s picture

The RC releases are Release Candidates so are ment for public testing. Im not saying they should or even could be bug free as thats why an RC is an RC afterall.

That is totally correct, but testing means testing, not building a site on it. :)

Also its clearly labelled under the Latest Release section on the frontpage ready to download.

Maybe this should be fixed by making a destinction between stable and developer releases. I'll discuss this.

I very much doubt many webmasters will download an older release when so much is changing to the new candidates. Even opensourcecms.com is using a RC test platform (where i originally tried drupal before coming over).

The first part is incorrect and I've got the download stats to prove it:

4.6.6: 11618
4.7RC3: 1606
4.7RC4: 1059

This is for about the last two weeks (since April 13th).

What opensourcecms runs cannot be influenced by us.

Your point about nodes was nodes since 3.0 is fine and i accept you can call anything anything you wish. However what you have done is increase the learning curve to new members for no apparant reason. I'm not saying thats wrong or right, i'm telling you how it is from my point of view.

If we'd call nodes content the learning curve wouldn't be lower since we'd need to distinguish this kind of content from other forms of content like user profiles and blocks.

Regards Taxonomy i appreciate i ill understand its full function and hope it will come in time.

Is it one of the features which sets Drupal apart from other CMSes. Ask wikipedia for a definition. :p

The point im trying to make is that the project has great support and is very active but from an admins point of view, new to the project, its frustrating knowing there are solutions to problems encountered that you don't know how to implement,

I think that any programm that is powerful is neccessarily also somewhat complex.

Granted as i develop further in the drupal community these problems become less and less as i understand how things work better but the point i'm trying to make generally is that from a new member, it can be cunfusing due to the assumption that the members are already in the "know" and could turn away new members to the community. I'm sure thats not the intent of the project.

I hope you can at least understand that.

I sure understand that, but I am still convinced that at least the hassle with patches is an error on your part, ie to use a non-released version for a purpose for which it isn't meant. Now, being the developer types that we are we might not have thought that people who aren't developers might want to try out release candidates for unforeseen purposes. We maybe should make this clearer for the next release candidate. As you can see your input isn't useless. :)

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desm0n’s picture

Thanks for the explaination.

I think its down to how new you are to the project i guess.

If you've been here say when 4.6.6 was released you'd likely stick with that in favour of RC builds on production websites. However i think coming into it from my perspective you grab the latest version as usually these offer enhanced features and past bug fixes.

For my point of view i went with RC3 then released my mistake and re-installed with 4.6.6 only to find that some modules i wanted to use had either better support on 4.7 or were lacking some features on their 4.6.6 counterparts.

So i then proceeded to upgrade my site back from 4.66 to RC3 and then RC4 when hotmail stopped getting emails from new registrations.

I think its just the terminology on the layout of how things get resolved i need to learn but i'll get there as best i can.

At least you guys are open to listening to what a "newbie" has to say. Thats a credit to you and certainly another box ticked.

Toe’s picture

If you've been here say when 4.6.6 was released you'd likely stick with that in favour of RC builds on production websites. However i think coming into it from my perspective you grab the latest version as usually these offer enhanced features and past bug fixes.

4.6.6 is the latest version...

desm0n’s picture

I'm sorry but i disagree. The latest version is of course the RC releases.

Granted that the most stable release is the 4.6.6. but webmasters are a funny breed that want all the bells and whistles now. I don't want to spend months of development to suddenly find i have to recreate parts as the core has changed so much.

Take modules for instance. Now they are using the install module to automate SQL database schemas for instance. Also some of the modules i wanted to use were either unavailable or not working as expected in 4.6.6 so of course i opted for the latest and greatest version.

RC's are a funny breed when you think about it as they are released with the understanding they are stable but may need some bugs addressed as they arise. Interestingly enough this happens regular to so called "stable" versions as well so why on earth use a build that is so far behind the build chain when the other is already on the plate ?

Maybe the main issue is that drupal are leaving it far too long between major versions. Also i would like it noted that it was actively encouraged to use the RC releases in favour of the older 4.6 ones.

However, don't let this news of critical issues scare you. Drupal.org has been purring happily along on the 4.7 development branch for 3 weeks now without issues, showing that 4.7.x is a mature branch which has definitely left behind its growing pains. It's notable that today it's been exactly one year since Drupal 4.6.0 was released. This is almost double our normal release time and we will definitely talk more about this extended development after the final release. We definitely want to avoid such long delays in the future.

So again i must stress from a webmasters point of view i would opt for the version that the site that promotes it is using every single time. Stated above the statement pretty much assured me that the RC 3 release was pretty stable (and it is) and that this site was indeed running it happily, and doing so for some weeks.

Reading that from a webmaster new to the projectIi take it as parts. The 4.6.0 version came out exactly a year ago (granted there have been revisions since then and looking deeper now 4.6.6 came in march), this very website is using the RC version (which the same webmaster is accessing everyday) and the news says "don't let that worry you, its been stable here for 3 weeks", so of course most will opt for the new RC builds in favour of what is now pretty much percieved as the older 4.6 chain.

Also if you search through forums for solutions you'll see that very very often referance for solutions is to the 4.7 RC releases and not 4.6 releases.

sime’s picture

Release "Candidate" - It's like Presidential "Candidate", it's not the real thing!

Just another thought

Sure coders can lose perspective of how drupal comes across. But basically we are all aware of this issue. For example, look at this thread to see how hard people work to break down the barriers between developers and users.
http://drupal.org/node/60358

sepeck’s picture

A few of your questions answered on this very page

Introduction to Drupal terminology
Drupal version numbers or which version you should use

I think there is some confusion. Drupal does not rely on Linux patches. Patch is a tool. It is easier to use on *nix systems but these are not Linux patches you are applying to your Drupal install. Yes patching is not something simple to learn but if yo upersist you will have a valuable tool to use in other areas of your exploration of technology. It is still a developers tool, not a neophytes tool.

As to how to use modules. That is up to contributors. We have a site-recipes section but we can only publish what people contribute. Many promise few submit.

Have fun.

-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
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-Steven Peck
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Test site, always start with a test site.
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heine’s picture

In addition; patch documentation can be found at http://drupal.org/node/22568

If you notice ommissions or difficulties please add to the issue http://drupal.org/node/60184

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rneal’s picture

After wrestling with a few modules (the pdf module comes immediately to mind), Drupal should at very least have a standard that before a module can be checked in and put on the projects/modules page, it must have at minimum a 'readme.txt' that lists the version, the developer, and any dependencies (even if it's "none"), and 2) an 'install.tx' even if all it says is 'upload the module to the modules directory and activate it in administrator --> modules'.

Also, I believe the OP said he's working on a Windows platform. Isn't there a Windows version of the patch tool that I believe someone mentioned somewhere else?

heine’s picture

http://drupal.org/node/60179, more program specific instructions are to be added.
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desm0n’s picture

Thanks heine.

I've actually downloaded those and tried to use them to patch one of the modules i was originally having issues with. Im not convinced the patch went well however as the problem persisted.

God to think i used to use DOS all the time and now have no clue. Windows really has spolied us i think :)

sepeck’s picture

The bar to contribution is low. It has probably benefited us far more then the oposite. There has been a lot of work on the back end programs that Drupal.org relies on that may allow some flexibility in the future though.

-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
Drupal Best Practices Guide -|- Black Mountain

-Steven Peck
---------
Test site, always start with a test site.
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sime’s picture

Hi desm0n

Glad to have you with us. I think everyone deserves a "what-I-think-about-drupal" post at some stage. As another windows user, I was interested in some aspects of what you wrote.

But I don't see any show-stoppers, you'd probably agree. As soon as you start installing release candidates (for example), you are kind of nominating yourself for some sort of trouble. So you just need to work through the issues. Here is a start...

Patches are specific, unambiguous, "how-to-change-the-code" instructions. This can be done manually by finding all the "-" lines and replacing them with "+" lines. Or if the patch has been applied to HEAD, you can replace the whole file by finding it in cvs.drupal.org.

So for patching, you don't really need to worry about software to do this unless you are developing or testing extensively. And sure, I agree, that "HEAD" confused me at first, but there always a language to learn - eg. what the heck is a mambot?

Regarding taxonomy. For a straight installation by a non-technical person, there is simply a menu item called "categories". So I'm in the non-issue camp - but admittedly it's a very contentious issue. :-)

If you want to get a handle on the power of taxonomy, then write this on a post-it note and start learning it: "Taxonomy is the science of classification."

Kindly
Simon

PS. Drupal rocks!

desm0n’s picture

Hi simon.

I couldn't agree more that there is nothing ive encountered yet that are "show stoppers" so i hope that didn't come across in my post.

I have to admit to being frustrated at point with drupal beyond compare. However equally i must admit to loving the flexibility of the software too.

Im a webmaster and not a programmer so i approach things from a user point of view.

The reason for upgraded to RC versions of drupal is that the 4.6,6 releases seemed far behind regards module development (After i realised i had not shown 4.7 modules in the downloads section).

Now again from a users point of view little things like the bug im encountering with the forum default posting are MAJOR issues to them.

Members of online communities are not generally as competent as we would like and thus a little issue like this causes confusion.

Granted this was brought on by myself upgrading to the latest version but its incredibly frustrating when i read the very same issue in the bug list, am told its fixed in HEAD (which i have no idea how to get) and that the direct download link on the drupal frontpage doesn't include that bug resolved.

For me its about usuability.

Is drupal right for me ? I would hope so. Is it right for my members ? Yes theres no doubt. However is it developer or webmaster friendly ? I would say that at this stage i would have to go with the former than the later.

Again please don't get me wrong on my comments. Im not trying to moan but just better understand the system and help those that maintain it to better understand some of its target audience. Better to be easier to understand that turn away potential new members to the community.

And BTW the mambobot terminalogy and insane layout of mambo.org eventually turned me off that CMS system so i get your point entirely :)

rory--’s picture

I've been using Drupal since September, and when I started, I had no clue about anything.

I've also done quite a few things that I now realize I shouldn't have done, such as upgrading directly from 4.6.3 to 4.7, and straight on to CVS, without upgrading my modules in between.

However, on the user side: Drupal works like a charm. My users all hate using the computer, and they find my site decent enough to actually visit, which I is a definite plus. Its few problems really do get worked out quickly.

So if I were you, I'd stick to Drupal. It's the best CMS I've worked with, and I used Mambo and Joomla before this one.

sime’s picture

I'm not insulted or anything. As I said, eventually people write a thread called "what i think about drupal". It's kind of an initiation rite ;-)

If you were a part-time/casual/hobbyist, you could install and get a standard solution, like a forum or blog. The development community work really hard to make it easy, and it is getting really easy.

But as a professional "webmaster" who wants custom solutions, it requires learning. That means becoming familiar with the issues queue, learning to research drupal, learning to post bug issues, getting on IRC, practicing answering issues in the forum. Maybe spending a month or two learning it.

So IMO the real question you have to ask yourself: are you confident enough in Drupal to take the time to learn it? That's the hard question. There was once a time when I thought zen-cart was worth learning, and I lost a month of my life on it.

BTW, you can browse all the code, including the lastest code "HEAD" via cvs.drupal.org. There's a little drop-down box where you can choose which code you want to browse. Have a look-see.

.s

desm0n’s picture

thanks again simon.

Yes i totally understand that any software comes with a full learning curve and currently i'm in the "long haul" i'll stick with drupal camp.

Granted also rome wasn't invented in a day and i really hope i haven't bilittled the hard work of all members of the project both developers and fellow admins alike.

I just needed to try and get my point across out of both frustration on my part and concerns that if i felt this way, others may feel the same.

Once your comfortable with something its extremely hard to see how others could possibly be struggling. I know i've screamed at my wife from time to time over my own frustration how she can't do the most simplistic computer task i set her and its really hard to undertand that she simply hasn't learned that part of her computing life yet.

I'll struggle on and hope to help the new members of the drupal community by my own unique learning journey.

I'll keep an eye on the forums for anywhere i can jump in and help, even at my limited knowledge level.

sime’s picture

And BTW the mambobot terminalogy and insane layout of mambo.org eventually turned me off that CMS system so i get your point entirely :)

Tried joomla btw?

rneal’s picture

Drifting off topic a little, when I went throught the Open Source CMS search, I narrowed it down to Drupal and Mambo/Joomla.

On front-end/end-user usability, Mambo/Joomla get the nod, by a long shot in some cases. But, the permisssions system of Drupal is far, far superior to anything on the open source market and a necessity in the type of site I started (an open/community site where anybody can log in and start posting blogs, photos, calendar items, etc.).

Plus, all the political b.s. surrounding Mambo/Joomla put me off, although I would have gone with Joomla because its feature set seems to be advancing more rapidly.

So, we go forth with Drupal, and try to hack in usability wherever possible. I wish 4.7 had done more in that department for end-users, but it sounds like the 4.7 tinkering under the hood will make it more possible going forward.

desm0n’s picture

I hated mambo and could never navigate my way around with ease. Granted i truly didnt give it a great deal of time as the website itself put me off somewhat but i know many of my admin friends swear by it.

Subdreamer, a very simplified CMS, was something i used for many months and i have to admit to loving how easy, from an admins point of view, it was to configure.

Drupal ticked all the right boxes for me from the get go. It was flexible, adpative and quite easy to naviagte. Also the blog like forums were a bonus and then saying members could submit events or blogs sold me.

I actually discovered drupal through Vbulletin of all things. I was curious why so many where a little annoyed that an arcade mod for vbuulletin was not compatable to vbdrupal and that set me on ther path to find out what all the fuss was about.

Once i realised there was modules that allowed TinyMCE to be used both for the admin and members i was sold.

chx’s picture

I admit I used too many words. Next time I will just set to fixed and the version to cvs without any explanation. Lesson learned.
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desm0n’s picture

no it was me at fault i assure you. I'm learning, albeit slowly :)

I've updated to the current CVS and now everything is back to normal.

I did actually try the forums module from the local CMS but killes@www.drop.org finally set me on the right path with installing it all due to several locations being updating to sort this bug.

Thanks again ...