Here come duh rain
It amazes me how morbid, drab, and dark the themes for Drupal continue to be.
Each day I go to download and look over the latest theme releases...
Yeah, I know I can always fix themes by using Zen and going through process of basically building my own theme.
Yet, the reason I use Drupal is to save time in development and put up more fully featured sites.
Sure would be nice if some theme developers would start spitting out some upbeat, colorful and exciting themes.
Frankly, I don't think commercial themes have to be as drab and dark as they are either.
Competing on the web is not just about having all the tricked out functions and W3C compliance.
People like to be pepped up and energized.
I work with alot of sites that appeal to young people, and to be very honest there aren't many options with Drupal.
I still use the Rooplethemes, because young people like change and embrace it. It is easy to make quick changes in Rooplethemes, and it's not too hard to tweak the CSS using Roople themes. The complete changes in blocks with color schemes in Roople is still very excellent. Roople hasn't released a theme since Tapestry and they are still tops in my books.
I'm not picking on anyone I hope. I'm just trying to say some things, which I think need to be said. It is common knowledge on the web that Drupal themes are boring and commercial. Doesn't sound like a plus to me.
So, I sure encourage theme devs to think about what I've said, and please don't be defensive. We just need brighter, upbeat, and more colorful theme options.
Edited by: VM; Moved to general discussion forum
Edited by: VM; Reverted revision of title in order to keep context of dicussion
Comments
If it's common knowledge, you
If it's common knowledge, you didn't need to say it Ms. Obvious.
So, what do you propose? Contests? Kidnap a few designers and force them to make themes? Chip in to buyout and relicense a few themes from a good commercial source?
I tried to make my posting
I tried to make my posting fair.
Themes is an area in Drupal that needs attention, which I don't think anyone would argue.
I am not graphic competent, challenging me to do better is like handing me a Hockey stick. I can't even skate.
I do think contests work. I recall a theme contest on Joomla before they released 1.5 was very popular. The Joomla community reaped a good harvest of excellent themes.
Then of course you had to use Joomla, which put a sock in it for me.
I think we have the talent here on Drupal.
Maybe if some of the theme developers that really understand the guts and framework teamed up with some of the graphics gurus, that would be a start.
Sure... I know that takes some leadership, but I think we have plenty of leaders in this community.
=-=
One can learn to play hockey and use a hockey stick without learning to skate. However, if you want to play ice hockey learning to skate is essential. The key is learning than applying what you've learned. Self motivation should power this desire.
Knowledge is power and gaining knowledge is the only way to the goal of getting out of your head, and into a some tangible form, the ideas that you have. Whether it's authorship, theme design, graphic art, music or yes, even the ability to skate. If you can envision it, and take the time to study and learn, than you can reach for your own goals and make yourself less dependant on others.
Got an itch? Scratch it!
Got an itch? Scratch it!
As to scratching, I do happen
As to scratching, I do happen to have the address of a few theme designers and a suitable basement :>
How about linking a to a few
How about linking a to a few designs you think are upbeat and not in any way drab; personal taste is so hard to visualize from only so many words.
Seriously I agree with you, but its getting our hands on those designs thats the hard bit, building the theme is easy, very easy, its the design bit that's hard.
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
Jeff you know I appreciate
Jeff you know I appreciate your work and have used your themes many times.
There are many very excellent Wordpress and Joomla themes.
If I were a theme developer I would seriously review and study Wordpress themes to start.
Some of the best ports to Drupal have come from Wordpress themes.
I agree about the design bit, that is why I have to leave it to the more competent graphics guru types.
I've spent weeks trying to doctor themes and ended up with worse looking themes than I started with.
=-=
Thats not very specific or helpful. As stated alot of it is personal preference. I'd bet I can find some morbid, drab and dark themes in wordpress too.
What would be helpful is examples of those themes that would bring to mind, and fingers, positive rather than negative adjectives.
VM I noticed a hint of
VM
Obvioiusly, you just don't like to read comments about things you don't want to read. LOL
I noticed a hint of sarcasm in your posting, regardless I will make an effort to provide the information.
My slate is very full, but I will do that as I can over coming weeks or longer. I will post on this thread with the results.
I will provide critique and reasoning with what I see as well.
Also, if others reading this would chime in that would be good.
I have no corner on good ideas
=-=
Obviously you don't like to be specific when asked for specifics and leave that work to others as well as building themes to your specs. One would think you'd have an example to show so that those reading can gauge exactly what you mean. But, eh, read whatever tone you feel better using. It's all good for me : )
After reading your other comments, it seems to me that what you are actually saying is: There aren't enough themes freely available for you to expand your portfolio and therefore your economics. You are getting to a point where you are running out of ideas because you are dependant on others. Therefore you want others to do the work and donate it, support and maintain it rather than rolling up your own sleeves and sharpening your own skillset. Therefore instead of you making yourself look better, you want others to make you look better.
Themes are expensive and time consuming for anyone who undertakes such a task. While the theme may take some people less time to build than others, the maintenance and support that must be donated is also expensive and time consuming. Relying on the users asking for such tasks to be done by others, to help in some way, is usually fruitless because of the reasons you've already cited, which are very similar if not exact to other posts of this nature where users cite the reasons they can't/won't learn or involve themselves.
I don't disagree Drupal could use more flavors in the theme arena but I don't expect from others what I won't even try to do for myself.
I find it a shame really. It reminds me of antecdote I was told when I was much younger. "Beggars shouldn't be choosers."
I explained myself and what I
I explained myself and what I do with Drupal.
You are hijacking the thread and turning it into something it isn't.
Let us make a peace... Please
Do not read or respond to any of my postings, I will give you the same courtesy.
=-=
Just calling it like I see it in a threaded discussion, and will read and respond to any posting or comment that piques my interest, curiosity, and yes, sometimes ire. You've your opinions and criticisms based on the original post and your continued comments and I've mine. I won't apologize if it rubs you the wrong way that my opinions differ from yours.
VM has got a good point here.
VM has got a good point here. I mean theres nothing to stop you contributing to Drupal by say, putting up 600 bucks on 99designs and working with a themer to push out a nice theme. I know a half dozen themers who would jump at the chance to contrib back if they had the designs to work with.
Nevets said it earlier, itch your scratch. Lets face it, you are making a buck off Drupal and the hard work put in by everyone, so why not?
I cant count the amount of times I have called peoples bluff by asking them directly to get involved and I never hear from them again. The harsh reality is that very few bother to get involved, and that's the problem. All I did was ask for a few designs that you thought looked good, but that seems to much (saying you'll do it later is pretty much as good as never, now is the hour...), and that is the sign that you really actually do want someone else to take up the slack. Busy is no excuse dude, we're all busy. Its a busy world. Twenty minutes to hunt around for a few designs that look good is too much? Come on man, give me a break. I spent 20 hours this week writing documentation for the D.O Redesign Project, 3 hours in meetings about said docs, 2 hours testing patches for D7, at least 2 hours working on Genesis 7, another 2 hours in my issue queue, and...
Look, the difference between those who contribute and those who don't is that those who contribute tend to do it because they believe in it. That's the best words I can find for it, call it a belief in Open Source, in sharing, in making the world a little bit better. Those that don't contribute tend to be narcissistic parasites with only their own interest at heart, usually financial.
So we all have a choice, narcissistic parasite or benevolent giver. The choice is right there. Brutal eh?
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
I opened pandora's box it
I opened pandora's box it would seem.
Look at the themes in download for the past few days for yourself.
Don't get me wrong there are some excellent themes in the community.
I do with Drupal what it is designed to do. I build websites, and I try to stay altogether within released themes and modules.
There is no way I could build the kind of sites I can with Drupal. It would be too expensive and time consuming for most of the people for whom I work.
Mostly, I do non-profit sites. Without open source most wouldn't have web presence.
So, I suggest you theme developers roll up your feelings. I'm not attacking anyone. I'd just like to use more upbeat, colorful and exciting themes on Drupal.
Themes are an art form in my thinking. I don't believe I have the gift, nor could I do as well as the many Drupal theme builders.
I'm basically trying to tweak some interest for more exciting, colorful and upbeat themes for Drupal sites.
Give us a swatch...
We need a swatch of what you think are say, about five to seven colors that go together nicely and are upbeat.
Really it isn't very hard. Or a single example of a web site you like. Or maybe a direction like blues are out.
Purples are really making inroads this year... "Do better" isn't really helpful. I don't think anyone (or at least most of us:) are
attacking you. But as a contractor like yourself, I can't count the number of hours I've lost (and consequently dollars) because
of clients saying, "It's not quite right....Can you make it, say, like, better?"
-John
There are a myriad of
There are a myriad of resource type sites with color combinations... or complimentary color schemes for setting up site color schemes.
http://www.neteffect.dk/colormatch/
I mentioned in posting above I will do my best over the next few days to compile a URL listings of some sites.
You are right about clients. That is why themes like Roople are so excellent. I can't tell you how many times I've changed the blocks and CSS in Roople and got approval.
Drupal color tools are pretty darned awesome and help alot. Recently, I put up 3 sites using WABI, one was an UberCart site.
The 960 grid is pretty awesome as well, except in some cases the grid spacing between panels or blocks is too large.
Why you ask, oh, why?
OK, before I respond to your question - I'm guessing you either run Roopletheme or are friends with the person that does?
I'm primarily a designer, and you say that Roople is the best you've found and compare it to the vibrant, youthful and colourful spectrum you can find in the ether for other open source products like Wordpress and Joomla. As a designer I would politely disagree and say (with the least offence to the creator of roople) that it is poor in terms of the design. It appears to have a lot of regions, but not a lot of design.
You are correct in the general point that Drupal needs more good designs as themes, however there is a basic motivation aspect that you are missing an understanding of....
There is a big difference in the way designers and (clever people) who make the Drupal magic work. Drupal being open sourced means that people who can write really good code are able to contribute directly to modules for example (all the things that make drupal powerful).
Designers do not have this application in terms of their designs. A programmer/coder could create a solution as part of their daily work which can then be sanitised and contributed to the community, for people like you and me to use. Designers generally have a fixed aim when designing and are unable to contribute those designs to the community. Yes they could work longer hours (if there were any more available) to specifically design themes for the repository, or to sell commercially. But the fact that this would be outside of their work pattern means that this takes 2nd place to paid work.
I'm 100% behind designers becoming more active participants within the Drupal community, and giving back as much as they can. But using me as an example -
1) I need to pay the bills
2) I need more free time
3) I'm protective about my work, can take honest feedback and implement suggestions - however after taking many hours, days, weeks of creating the last thing you want would be to be at the mercy of a stream of "requests" that "that blue isn't orange enough".
I'm not having a go at your original post, just trying to explain why it is that you may not see that many FREE stunning designs around.
Drupal is powerful and can be complex... it's not generally an "out of the box" solution such as Wordpress - but I guess you know that or you'd be using Wordpress. Development of a Drupal theme takes much longer than WP - which is why there is the difference in submissions.
Dreamleaf Media
I tried to communicate in my
I tried to communicate in my opening posting it would be nice to have more colorful, upbeat and exciting themes.
No one is buying it. So, I guess it's going to be status quo.
You are right. I do use Wordpress and other CMS when I can't fulfill some client requests, especially with themes.
I've been using Drupal CMS appx 3 years and I prefer it to all others.
Since I am not a theme developer I wouldn't know squat about Roople themes, except I use them frequently because they have alot of options for customizing them.
Sadly, the Roople themes are no longer supported, by Roople.
I regret making the posting, because I do respect the work of the theme devs for Drupal. I didn't anticipate so much negative resistance.
I appreciate the fact you responded in a sensible manner, rather than considering my posting an attack.
It would seem there is nothing I can say about this issue that won't create some sort of flame war with someone.
I think I've said enough.
Thanks for all the responses
Na man you're getting it all
Na man you're getting it all wrong, no one is pissy about your post, well at least I'm not, what got people pissy was that if you want something you gotta be prepared to work at it a bit.
I actually responded very positively at the outset, I kinda like it when people sticky there neck out and I was hoping that if you come with a gripe you at least have a part of the solution in your back pocket. That fact that you didn't is what raised peoples hackles.
Look man, go to the issue queue for any controversial D7 patch and you'll see a lot more heated debate than is going on here, the difference is that most of those people have a solution, they spend time to make a contribution, it may not get in, things might end up being done totally difference, but they are doing it, getting involved. What you did was post then run, I mean I did ask you to participate and you said "sorry, too busy". What do you expect?
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
Don't know what you mean
Don't know what you mean participate.
I know friggin' zip about making themes.
Do I feel like an stupid, because I don't build themes? NOPE.
Again, I don't know about building themes.. what part of that don't you and others understand.
------------------------
Building sites with Drupal that is what I do best. I don't build themes and modules, that is not where I can do my best work.
What is wrong with that? What is wrong with making some theme requests? What is wrong with make a module request?
Guys like me contribute by using the Drupal, and make good websites.
Is something wrong with that?
------------------------
Guys like you do your best work with themes and it tweaks your interests.
That is a good thing, you contribute in your way, others build modules... and me I build sties.
------------------------
This guy didn't run anywhere. I've been posting on these boards for 3 years, and will still be around while using Drupal.
Again, maybe someone should tell me just how to participate.
I think alot of you that build themes and modules have a total misconception about those of us who build sites.
I can't speak for others, but in my case I build sites for non-profits who have little or no money.
If they had any money I'd be using ASP or applications that could generate revenue for changes and updates.
Afterall, any developer knows how that works. You don't mess around with Open source when you can get paid well enough.
Open source is great for the kind of people I work with, it's the only way they could have a website that uses a database.
=-=
most of those who build themes build sites too. Same with those who build modules. Most don't do it for the fun of it. There is a method to the madness. The idea that you are busier because of some # that you maintain and some # of sities in the oven is presumptuious.
I didn't get a knot in my attitude until you stated "you don't like to read things you don't like" in response to following up Mr. Burnz asking for specific examples.
At first I was interested in exactly what type of themes you found brighter, upbeat, and more colorful. Especially since these terms are subjective. Instead you basically told us to go research them for ourselves which in no way, is an example of what YOU find brighter, upbeat, and more colorful. Therefore you were handed the same philosophy in building them yourself.
A real contribution would have been specific examples of YOUR tastes in themes.
Thats a crock. I know multiple multi million dollar outfits that use open source projects as the base of a website they are building. Drupal alone is used on many sites which are mentioned all over the net. How do you explain Sony? MTV? Governments? all using drupal instead of .ASP?
With open source as well as .ASP or any other type of site being build there is a thing called maintenance contracts. I don't sympathize with the idea that non profits mean no profits. Maybe your business model needs to be tweaked to offer payment plans spread over X number of months. I've done this for lower profit companies in the past without issue if I sympathize with their cause. Also of note, depending on where one lives, tax writeoffs for non profits to offset the losses may be considered a charitable contribution. Tax attornies or accountants should be confered on if this would apply to you. Provided you pay taxes of course.
You can contribute /
You can contribute / participate in many many ways, for example, you build sites, you know how to install and configure things, you probably have a fair idea how to break things also. That's valuable, very valuable, because the biggest time sink in theme development is not the designing and theming, its the testing.
Like I said right back at the beginning, the theming bit is the easy bit, what is hard is finding the designs and knowing what end users actually want (and I mean really really want, since we do actually want our themes to be used). So compiling lists of candidate themes and getting community feedback could be a valuable exercise (not to mention attract attention and interested themers...).
Frankly I would be very motivated if someone approached me with a smoking hot shopping cart design and offered to do testing with Ubercart and Views. Seriously.
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
I recommended you highly to
I recommended you highly to OpenPublish devs awhile back.
It is 2.07 AM in the morning and I am still keyboarding. I have to finish a major portion of a site by 9 AM, or I will be working Sunday.
When I say I'm busy. I mean it, and all the nagging posters on this thread can't change that.
I recently built an Ubercart site and it went pretty well, except the choices for themes that specifically relate are few.
I settled on the WABI, and haven't had problems. It is a very simple theme with a color wheel, which is very popular with the site owner.
He likes to change the colors, and changing colors do not affect the operation of the site.
I realize your strong feature is framework, which is great for building the site.
After passing off the site to owners they aren't too excited about making framework changes.
Changing framework is usually too much trial and error for them, and they cannot afford to have the work done for them.
Yet, as the site builder I am very interested to have those abilities, which help to build more interesting sites.
Every site I have turned over to users with the ability to change colors, typography or blocks style and color are popular.
I don't mean making changes in the CSS files. I mean when the theme uses color wheels, selectable typography, block styles and color.
_
<sigh>, as always the posters of threads with such incendiary titles seem to have plenty of time to participate in the thread proselytizing their views over and over, plenty of time for paying clients, and yet no time at all to contribute back -- all the while criticizing those that do.
Its quite simple-- either be willing to pitch in and work on your particular gripe or don't bother posting about it. It really is that simple.
I have 19 Drupal sites up
I have 19 Drupal sites up now, which I maintain.
I am working on another 7 at this time. When I say I am busy.... I mean busy.
The release of 6.16 the other day, put me behind 2 days just updating.
I use Drupal, because my clients aren't big bucks people. They are non-profits and community sites.
My understanding is Drupal is designed for site builders like me. I try to use only downloads from Drupal, modules and themes.
When I start coding all I do is make my job of maintaining sites that much more complicated.
I hate to make any changes in any module or theme as a rule, just because there are so many Drupal update releases.
Keeping up with all the module and core updates is almost a daily thing.
I choose to build and maintain sites, there are theme and module developers who have made similar choices for their respective interests.
We all have our niche, and my using Drupal for building sites is the best use of my skills.
_
You're kidding right? wow 19 whole sites? Do you seriously expect us to think for one second you're any busier than merlinofchaos, quicksketch, sun, catch, webchick, and on and on? Give me a break. That's actually insulting to every member of this community-- many of whom are busier than you and yet still manage contribute back one way or another.
Everyone can contribute back-- EVERYONE. You certainly have time to post 10 pages of issues and threads asking for help-- have you even bothered to spend the occasional minute or two answering a question for someone else? I'm curious how you can create post after post after post expecting someone to make time for you while all the while unwilling to make time for someone else? Who is it exactly that you think responds all to all these posts? People with nothing but free time? Sorry, but that's a total crock.
You are the one that started this thread-- with a purposefully incendiary subject (and editing your post doesn't erase it from the revision history btw) and then ran away when you got called out. As I said above-- you certainly have some free time in your busy schedule to create this thread and continue to participate in it-- time that would have been much better spent answering a question or two for someone else.
"I'm too busy" or "i don't have the skills" or whatever other bs excuses people pose for not contributing back are just that-- bs. You all choose not to contribute back-- and that's fine. It's a choice everyone makes for themselves. HOWEVER, if you choose to whine about what others are or aren't doing for you for free you WILL be called out on it.
WorldFaltz I've been posting
WorldFaltz
I've been posting back and forth with you on these boards for over 3 years.
You know darned well my intents are never vindictive in any thread.
The thread starter was not intended as incendiary.
What needs calling out about needing more themes that are colorful, exciting, and upbeat.
I would think any person with minimal graphics training could relate with those terms.
Besides... that is just about all my clients suggest as well.
I clearly understand how to effectively and efficiently use Drupal. I build sites with it.
I contribute by using the modules and theme releases. Almost all downloads now are identified as beta or dev, so anyone using those releases are beta testers. I used those contributed modules and themes on sites I am building and I give feedback to the developers. I have had to rebuild sites, and databases many times because of some bug in releases. I don't whine as you say. I try to resolve issues or at least provide some focus for the developer to fix the issue. So yes, everyone that downloads and uses modules and themes is in the contribution loop as well.
=-=
I beg your pardon but AFAICT your post was specifically designed to draw attention in an incendiary manner. Which is also was prompts you to continue to change the title and remove the incindiary text like "here comes duh rain".
The ire that you are reciveing is due to your lack of will to lift a finger beyond your own self interest.
I just started looking for
I just started looking for examples of bright, colorful, upbeat and exciting themes.
GOOGLE " wordpress templates" and there on the first search page are many excellent theme sites.
Supplying hyperlinks is totally unnecessary.
The evidence is all out there on the web on hundreds of sites.
When I use Drupal I will use the themes available and leave it at that.
=-=
This discussion on many levels is likely why the developers of themes (in some areas) like genesis and fusion and 960 (and others) which are trying to be as user friendly as possible while leaving open as many options as they can conjure up to allow a user to create what they envision or want to duplicate. Some of what they do is both at the template.php, settings in the admin ui, and as many options at the css level.
As you stated, you view themes as art. Well it really is art and sometimes the legalities (copyrights/licenses) of art when it comes to graphics and images. This why themers like to work with examples, but more importantly mockups when physically creating a theme. It aids a great deal because rarely will two people evision the same exact thing when told they don't want it to be drab, morbid, dark, but to be colorful, vibrant and bright. It's not so much what colors to use as to where you envision those colors to be used and how you expect them to be used. Sometimes even if crudely mocked up, its more than a general idea which is what the throwing of adjectives can become.
The Orphan Act being proposed by the Library of Congress where it concerns copyright law in the US has quite a few artists (photgraphers, painters, digital, authors, and the like) talking and speaking on the subject, at least on my campus. The concensus seems to be, it's not a good thing for art that is already out in the wild that you can't prove is yours. I don't know that this has affected themes in drupal, or themes for any CMS but it would be interesting to research and put some hard statistics to. This wouldn't affect the amount of themes released in the sense of the squares you get but the images or graphics one gets. (maybe this will be my next research paper).
if it helps:
Because of core's themeing system you can create subthemes which usually (at least by my experience) aren't affected by updates to the base theme you've chosen to use
Any theme is a series of squares and/or rectangles. Even when it looks like a circle, triangle or a star. It's really a square or a rectangle.
Whether you color it or add an image, it's still a square or a rectangle
Of note:
There are tutorials on how to convert wordpress themes to drupal. While you can't take wordpress theme settings with you directly, without replicating them in drupal. ie: process functions and such, you can convert the colors images and layout.
oswd.org is a good site to grab ideas from and in some cases convert them or replicate them.
The same can be done with HTML templates found around the net.
Hm, yeah, telling someone
Hm, yeah, telling someone else to do a google search to read your mind is easier than actually describing what you mean better.
So I did a google image search for themes
Then I did another search for themes,
So your point is that you are convinced that one of these searches returned "bright, colorful, upbeat and exciting" results, and the other search returns "morbid, drab and dark" results.
Which was which?
Look, it's hard not to be defensive when someone just criticizes without actually saying what they want but folk here have asked you several times exactly what you are looking for. And you seem incapable of actually communicating it. You are just saying "make it, say, like, better" If you'd really spent time working through requirements with clients before now, you'd understand how unconstructive that sort of spec is.
We know that there are hundreds of bright, beautiful drupal themes. If you want cute and shiny, Artisteer can supply you with thousands of solid, bright designs.
We'd all like to see even wider variety in themes - but nobody can guess what your personal idea of 'exciting' is. So your complaint rings empty.
And the only things that are made, and given back, are things that folk that can do make and give back. You sound like you should understand that by now, but don't seem to know the difference between a carrot and a stick. How do you directly try to help? Broadly complaining about free stuff is not helping. Despite what you say above, just taking advantage of somebody elses work is not "contributing". Taking is not the same thing as giving.
Though it seems - "You don't mess around with Open source when you can get paid well enough." - that despite your apparent history using Drupal, you don't seem to "get" the process at all.
*sigh*
Despite this whole thread easily getting very "anti", you may still have a point that you are just not able to communicate. Plenty of folk come in and can say "I want a feature like this site" or "a design like this". Those folk can often get answers or suggestions! Your "everything sucks, I want a better one" attitude doesn't have any answer apart from "here's 30,000 options, point at the one you want". Which is a game no developer will play for free.
... But if that is what you want - then Artisteer IS the answer for you. Try it out.
.dan. is the New Zealand Drupal Developer working on Government Web Standards
And the only things that are
Giving back, what the heck is the download section for?
What are all the support sites about?
Everyone contributes that uses Drupal. When we help modules and theme developers improve their ISSUES, that is contributing.
So, sigh about your own comments, maybe you should build your own CMS and then you can establish criteria for contributing.
vm hijacked this thread with his negative jibe and all his fanboys have jumped on the wagon, with the exception of Jeff Burnz who has tried to have a discussion.
I repeat...
When I use Drupal I will use the themes available and leave it at that.
Fanboys...lol This is not
Fanboys...lol This is not about bandwagons or any other hijacking sort of thing, this is about you post something and people posting a repeated question of "give examples" to which you still haven't.
The point of "giving back", which is not a hard concept to grasp, would entail not moaning and actually doing something to help the situation - for starters.. give designers a clue and say what you like WITH examples.
And I don't subscribe to your theory that using Drupal is a contribution. That is simple english language, contribute meaning "to give" - use of the downloads section would come under the category of "to take". Now, if you were "taking", then "modifying" and furthering the cause of your moan, then you would rightfully be contributing.
I'm really confused why you even started this thread now. You make a valid point, one which no-one is disagreeing with, yet you still keep coming back to it and rather than "contributing" to the discussion and trying to move it forward, are languishing in negativity and futile word play. It would appear to me that your business model is to take what is free and make a profit from it, that's cool... many of us do the same, BUT we don't attack the very people that are providing the free source of our wages - no matter how large or small. Get some politeness dude!
Let me repeat one more time what everyone has said here, we agree in principle that Drupal needs better designs, how about you help the cause and give your opinion of what good design is.
Dreamleaf Media
Drupal is opensource and the
Drupal is opensource and the purpose is for people to use it for website development. That is the sum of it.
Then I would be plagiarizing the work of others.
Examples you don't need examples. I indicated above... Google search on "Wordpress theme" and you'll get a fabulous array of websites of themes.
Politeness, you should look in the mirror at Mr. politeness himself.
You know as well as I do from the tone of postings like yours nothing can result, only rebuttals for anything I post.
Frequently, I discuss issues and make suggestions to module and theme builders. I share and contribute, without telling others how to code.
I build and maintain sites that is what I do, but I don't try to tell people how to do their work.
It is rare to have a module or theme developer request information on how to improve their contributions,
Regardless, of your perceptions about me or this thread, it might still accomplish something.
If someone is not receptive to making changes in what they are doing... it will not be done.
It is not uncommon when vulnerabilities or issues are made known that people react in different ways, and mostly they are not good.
This thread has turned into an adversarial mess, and that was not my intention.
This is a forums, an informal discussion forum.
Posters need to allow some latitude and let thoughts wring out, and not hang on every word negatively.
Then I would be plagiarizing
I'm astonished that you can claim to have been building websites with Drupal for any length of time without hearing about the concept of Open Source or the GPL. Please read the actual license before putting your foot further down your throat. It's only a page or two long. You may learn something.
And I illustrated that the results of such a search were entirely indistinguishable from the same search for "Drupal themes". Meaning - you have no point there. Failing to back up your statements and just hand-waving about "lots" without being able to point at even "one" it what's making people irritated.
.dan. is the New Zealand Drupal Developer working on Government Web Standards
You just need to go back and
You just need to go back and read my responses on this thread.
You don't need to lecture me on open source... it makes no difference to me.
I do not code, because continual updates in Drupal would prevent me from getting my work done.
My work is building and maintaining sites. I don't even like to make minor theme changes.
I am the best kind of user for module and theme developers. I discuss issues and make suggestions.
I don't code other peoples work, nor do I tamper with it on my sites.
When a module update is released I apply it and report issues known to me if they aren't already reported.
I'm doing with Drupal what it is designed to do, and I appreciate the developers that enjoy doing things that don't appeal to me.
=-=
Uh. I'd agree feedback in the form of bugs reports and feature suggestions is important and beneficial to developers. Especially compared to no feedback at all when something is stumbled upon. Those actions you take can be viewed as contributions. Absolutely and without a doubt. All contributors are important in this way and when clarification is warranted it should be provided.
I'm curious though as to why the choice of adjective "best"? Could you support that classification?
=-=
It's funny to me that you single me out (or anyone with an opposing view point) and use negative adjectives to label me or my responses as you did themes. Fact is, people are allowed to have differing opinions. The constructive part of the discussion declined and continued to decline with your inability or lack of want to provide specific examples.
You bitch about my tone without looking at your own. All I have to say to that is Hello Pot!
define:contribute
Sorry, you may have a language issue here. I try to remember that there are a number of non-native English speakers here, but I didn't realize that this was a confusion here.
The download section is where someone else gives and you take. They contribute their work. The person who takes without giving anything back is not a contributor. That happens in the upload section or the CVS repository. People contribute by writing and giving away code (and support)
The support sites are where people with skills contribute their assistance. If you ask for and receive that assistance for free, you are not the contributor - they are. You are the opposite of a contributor. And it's fine that you can take things for free that way. Up to a point.
There are many people and organizations that use Drupal without contributing. That's fine. I use plenty of other OSS without contributing to all the projects. But just because I take someone elses work and use it for myself does not in any way make me a contributor, just a happy beneficiary.
Sometimes, bug reports can be useful enough to be helpful to the developer, and testing like that that can be contributing in a small way. But ill-defined feature requests (like your post here) are not in themselves helpful contributions. Only in as much as they may occasionally stir up useful discussion and proposals. So lets keep trying to move forward with that.
Even, and only just - making a suggestion - can be "contributing" to a discussion. But you've not even done that much.
Many folk in the thread have tried to find ways in which your (valid) criticism could be turned into an actual solution, but that's not got anywhere because you can't or won't explain what you actually think could be done. If we could extract a proposal from your complaint, then maybe there would even be something positive to come out of this.
This is just a discussion, folk are being more polite to you than you deserve, and you trying to insult everybody on the thread when all they are asking, repeatedly is "so what do you actually want in a theme then?" just puts you in a bad light.
I made a couple of genuine, helpful suggestions, and illustrated with screenshots why we can't quite see what you mean by your comparison of available themes. You ignored that part?
You want something. We're not (much) bothered that you want it for free, or even that you demand that someone else to do the work for you - that's pretty much what we actual contributors do for fun anyway.
What is bothering is that you refuse to be any more constructive about saying just what it is you want. So that makes this complaint just noise.
We are looking for the silver lining to your dark cloud, but it's not showing up - yet.
.dan. is the New Zealand Drupal Developer working on Government Web Standards
I'm one of those "users" that
I'm one of those "users" that actually build and maintain productions sites using Drupal. I'm one of those that have alot of clients that give me alot of input.
Yes, I'm one of those "users" that actually works with the modules and themes in a large number of production environments.
You may be a themer, but I know what the people want whom I serve === and I couldn't have said it simpler in the first posting of this thread.
One simple sentence and no one seems to get it.
In my situation they want color, they want upbeat sites, they want excitement... my clients don't want blacks, greys and darks.
I am not a theme builder, that's as basic as it can be... and for the most part that is about all I get from clients who complain.
pulling teeth to extract a silver lining here
The one simple sentence that everyone got was the title you chose to give the thread.
It was provocative enough to get the response you were looking for, so congratulations on that.
If your real point was "I want more highly contrasting colors* in themes" then maybe your moan can be turned into the positive suggestion :
This could possibly lead to an action point or way forward such as Improving docs or referring theme developers to instructions for the color module.
See, that's maybe constructive. That's maybe a suggestion for positive ways of "contributing". But actually improving the docs - that's actually contributing!
Do you see the difference between these two phrases?
(*because of your utter refusal to clarify anything, I can only guess that by "exciting" theme you mean "high contrast" - any exciting imagery etc usually counts as 'content' and is not part of a general-purpose published theme.)
.dan. is the New Zealand Drupal Developer working on Government Web Standards
Well said!
Well said!
I have clarified through
I have clarified through numerous responses.
Go back read up... you missed some things.
If I had said, "I want more highly contrasting colors* in themes" as you mentioned.
I'd have gotten the same bellicose responses from certain responders, and you know it.
I said what needed to be said in my own words more than once.
Please, please, please - do
Please, please, please - do not reply to this post - instead use the time to go back to google and pull at least 1 example of a site with the design aspects you like. Please... call it a contribution, aiding the discussion.. whatever you like.. but please let's stop this pointless game of no-ball tennis.
If you really do want to see something better, do this one thing.... at least then we can discuss the merits of said design and how that could be applicable in translation to Drupal.
Dreamleaf Media
I rarely use Wordpress, but
I rarely use Wordpress, but there are many upbeat, colorful and exciting theme options for Wordpress.
Evan Eckard has some excellent free download themes http://www.evaneckard.com/pages/themes.php
Evan has only done a few themes, but they are all pretty exceptional.
http://desktopchaos.com/download/
and his http://www.notepadchaos.com/ has already been partially ported te drupal.
Smashing magazine has many outstanding themes for free download http://www.smashingmagazine.com/
Smashing magazine has an amazing array of free tools for theme building as well.
I don't think of myself as authority on best theme design. The Smashing magazine is always doing articles on the subject.
Years ago when I built only html sites where the graphic components and content were combined. I constantly referred to Vincent Flanders and Michael Willis books - "Web Pages that Suck"
My clients love:
1) the color wheel tools,
if CSS changes are required I usually get a call to do it.
2) the ability to change block styles and colors like in the old block theme used in Drupal
they like changing blocks to suit themselves
3) the ability to change typography as in some of the later themes.
they like this because many have access limitations
4) the ability to have rotating or slide show headers, where they can change the graphics.
I do use javascripts and Jquery for most of these. There are some very good tools available now.
I only mention this because the theme often needs extra regions to support these options
My clients love:
1) Framework alteration ability, but they always call me to do it.
Structural changes always fall my way, because my site owners know practically zip about websites.
Maybe this helps. I hope it does, because the intent of this thread was only to perk some interest with theme builders to look into building more colorful, upbeat and exciting sites. Maybe, I should have used the term EYE CANDY.
=-=
now we actually get closer to the crux of the issue.
Your issue doesn't seems to be so much about the themes that are available or not available. You want themes made that allow you as much control, and change as possible from the admin ui. What it is now sounding like is that you want more theme settings so you can flip some settings and allow users to do so from the back end. So that you have more control over being able to make changes to the theme without touching the HTML or CSS and give yourself and your clients what they envision. There isn't a color picker that allows you to change every element on drupal from the admin ui yet or be able to define every possible setting or function at the theme layer ... yet. There isn't a "region" maker ... yet. Though panels can be loosely viewed this way.
Fact is, controlling a theme in total from the admin ui doesn't soley rest on the sholders of themers and designers. Core in some cases needs avancement, modules in some cases need advancement so that they provide the mechanisms to alter every possible element. Core, modules and themes have been moving in this direction for some time now. Need proof? check out Drupal 4.7.x and compare it to what is available today.
There are modules that are working toward the features it seems you seek but they still don't have every possible combination someone can conjure up yet. Skinr, blocktheme and the like, may be a good examples of a module that is aiding in this area for those who don't want to work with CSS manually. For every user that wants more regions, there are users who want fewer so that their administer -> blocks page confusion is minimized.
Eye candy isn't very specific either as what is eye candy for some isn't eye candy for everyone. Eye candy, especially in the form of images is specific art as I mentioned earlier. Coming up with graphics, or "eye candy" for every possible want isn't possible. Many themes use generic images as placeholders which can be replaced fairly easily with client supplied logos, header art and stuff clients already have in use within their distributed information which should likely be used when and where available. They've either self created the art work or already paid the licensing fees to use the art work.
Read the posting you
Read the posting you responded to again, you missed something relevant.
I said my clients love certain features.
I only maintain upgrades and security fixes as they become known after the site is production.
Whatever it takes to build the site, it takes. I don't own the sites, I pass them over and they are admin by owners.
I do my best to meet the client needs and fits their budget.
It's what the people that actually are using and owning the sites want.
I don't think I'm the only Drupal site builder that passes off sites to third party site owners.
=-=
Why should I read the posting again? This is why the tone goes sour.
Is it difficult to understand the concept that because your clients want those features you want those features or the ability to provide them. I didn't miss it. I don't understand your argument there at all.
I have clients that want drupal to work directly from the desktop and publish right to the website when published. It's just not there yet, that I can work out. Because I have clients that want that, I want that or the ability to provide that want.
Excellent resources and
Excellent resources and comments, that is what I am looking for.
I think out of those designs:
Humidor
Gothan Heights
Royal
Simply Ornate
Are the most usable, the collage type designs are cool but hard to support things like sidebar switching (RTL) and things, they are also hard to build and take longer, and no one really uses them (because the design is so specific).
But, the other ones are very good and could be made Drupal themes quite easily. We'd need to cover off with the designer that applying GPL licence is OK (can you email the designer and ask please) because anything in D.O cvs must be GPL.
Otherwise the designs can be added to http://design.acquia.com/ where we have repo set up for themes that use non GPL designs.
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
Proposal: The "More Cowbell" module.
After going around in circles twenty times with A client from hell who was entirely unable to expand on what they meant by "exciting", we present the
More Cowbell Module
It consists of one large colorful button which you hit with a stick, preferably in an upbeat manner.
When hit, this module will modify your theme to add:
The site builder can then hit the cowbell as many times as they like, until sufficiently excited.
As a bonus, authenticated site viewers can also use the site to excite themselves in the privacy of their morbid, drab, and dark homes.
What it will not do under any circumstances is change the color of any element on the page - because when asked directly "Do you want to change the colors on the page or something like that" the answer was "No, of course not, nothing like that, I already told you I just want it more exciting".
.dan. is the New Zealand Drupal Developer working on Government Web Standards
...
Wow, I really need this module and to make all my themes dependent on it.
Pimp your Drupal 8 Toolbar - make it badass.
Adaptivetheme - theming system for people who don't code.
I do have a couple of feature
I do have a couple of feature requests though.....
Dreamleaf Media
This is an awesome module.
This is an awesome module. This would be just as useful as the "Facebook, MySpace, Twitter and 1st page of Google" module, which I started developing after dealing with this cheap client.
no, that modules not good
no, that modules not good enough, you didnt include youtube. :p
already designed my website in word haha!
=-=
domineaux please discontinue editing the title and the context of the original post through removal of text. Doing so is unfair to other readers. I will revert the revisions to the original context so save us both the time please.
If you have information you want to clairify do so through commenting not stripping your post of the incendiary language that started the downward spiral.
I felt I had made a mistake
I felt I had made a mistake starting off as I did. I changed it to encourage a more positive tone.
Hopefully, before the thread dies it will perk up... especially since we now have Cow Bell explanations.
=-=
Regardless of tone of the comments that followed the original posting and your follow up comments there is a ton of postive information being exhanged for you and others who find this thread later.
You didn't get exactly what you wanted when you started the thread which was others to create more themes for you to use. That was your end goal.
Keep in mind that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. You like to categorize by name calling and presume tone or why someone is commenting. When you do so commentors have the right to defend themselves against your accusations whether you add a LOL at the end of them or not. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
My goal was clear in the
My goal was clear in the first posting
Why don't you read my postings to add something constructive instead of focusing to make additional abusive commentary?
You changed it back, because you want to prolong negativity.
I agree is was wrong to make the subject in such fashion, but you are wrong to persist it be there when I have tried to change it twice.
=-=
I reverted it both times for the reason I gave. Whether you accept that or not is completely up to you.
I am not wrong to change it back, you're altering the entire context of the conversation with your removal of text and alteration of the title, which is forcing people to quote the original title in their comments.
I will continue to revert despite your futile attempts to continue to make me out to be the bad guy because i asked for "specific" examples which prompted you to throw the first stone.
_
No longer an issue vm ;-)
=-=
Good thinking. I hadn't thought of doing that. ^5
I still think something good
I still think something good might come out of this thread.
Regardless, of how it is worded or motivations interpreted.
=-=
There is plenty of good in this thread already. (Not to say that there won't be more to follow).
What you find unconstructive can be seen by others as constructive. What you find as abusive commentary can be viewed as honest commentary. You've been posting what you think and feel with reference to themes and individuals. The comments that followed (including myself) have been doing the same. Though you believe I've ulterior motives. I can't do much about your thoughts beyond argue my own and consider and further debate the arguments.
Unfortunately, you seem blinded by what you deem as negative and therefore can't see the positive.
hi, i feel that i do have to
hi,
i feel that i do have to search through pages of basic/bland themes to find one that stands out from other sites on the web. But I know themes get uploaded by users that have built them for personal use, and usually arent built for other users.
If you think that there are themers out there that need inspiration, why dont you set up a rating site and when ever you find a site you like the theme of, put a link of it on your site and allow other drupal users to vote on which site they would like something similar to, then if there is a themer that needs inspiration or is taking requests they can see what the community wants.
Something more personal, youve been using drupal for over 3 years, ive looked over your posts for over that past year and never really found any contribution, but you expect others to. You say your not good at building themes or modules, but you can build sites, and say most of the sites youve made are non-profit community sites, so would it be a problem for you to give some sites to the community, such as http://drupal.org/node/519100
Why do I have to answer all
Why do I have to answer all these discussion question. I started the thread for discussion among others not me being a target.
Because vm Hijacked the thread by attacking me to start and has persisted to keep a negative tone, allied with fanboys.
So, I get to defend everything to everyone, not my intent.
To heck with this, you guys can commend yourselves among yourselves.
Maybe something good can come out of the thread, I hope that is the case.
I have nothing else to say on this matter.
i was helping you
i was helping you
_
Don't waste your time ocamp--
1. when people want to contribute they find a way, any way -- regardless of their skills and/or free time or lack thereof.
2. when people don't want to contribute they don't.
3. when people who don't want to contribute need something, they whine about this or that being wrong with drupal (which just happens to map to their or their paying client's agenda) to try and herd those who do contribute into providing what they want for free-- all the while making all sorts of lame excuses why they can't (read 'wont') do it themselves or contribute back in any meaningful way.
It's just one of the pitfalls of open source. Thankfully those that do contribute far out number those that don't-- though it may not always seem that way since those that don't tend to make the most noise.
Well, I think I don't have
Well, I think I don't have anything else to contribute to this. I guess I'd better get on to design some drab, dark and morbid stuff. I may even listen to some classic Portishead to spur me on.
One thing though Dom, I'd be honestly interested to see some of the sites you've put together and maintain, having 19 projects completed and 7 on the go is quite an achievement - it would be good to be able to see what people are doing with Drupal.
Dreamleaf Media
wordpress templates
I googled wordpress templates and selected the first site. 1200 Wordpress templates versus the 600 themes on drupal.org. Their top 20 contains several themes that are in drupal.org plus several that have close equivalents.
One of the themes is interesting only because of the banner image. Marinelli, one of drupal.org's most popular themes and demonstrated at http://d-theme.com/marinelli, is popular because of impressive banner images.
Five of the themes are upbeat, colourful, and exciting only from images in the content. Ten are dark or highlighted by dark areas. Where are upbeat, colourful, and exciting free Wordpress themes?
Some have good use of white space, something available in a lot of Drupal themes.
Does colourful mean a lot of colour? http://d-theme.com/earth_birthday
Does colourful mean bold colour? http://d-theme.com/nigraphic_studio_theme
Dark but colourful: http://d-theme.com/appleweb
Bold: http://d-theme.com/mondrian
Upbeat? http://d-theme.com/abeesparadise
I am not seeing free Wordpress themes better than the free Drupal themes. Many Drupal themes go through accessibility testing, a priority for a lot of site owners. I work on many sites where the criteria, in order of importance, is community maintained, reliable, standards compliance, accessible, good use of whitespace, and do not detract from the content. Funky gets mentioned a lot but nobody can agree on what funky means, other than . Exciting content rates higher than an exciting theme. Colour should fit in with the content. Upbeat, like funky, has no meaning outside of the target audience. Your upbeat might be another person's funky.
http://d-theme.com/art_school
http://d-theme.com/new_horizon
http://d-theme.com/note_chaos
http://d-theme.com/spring_bloom
http://d-theme.com/strange_little_town
http://d-theme.com/summertime
petermoulding.com/web_architect
I cant understand why the OP
I cant understand why the OP doesnt make his own themes if this is so important to him...I would never use a template theme on any of my sites anyway, who wants to have a site that looks like dozens of others....