Add new admin for Brazilian Portuguese group on localize.drupal.org

subscribing

I've sent wundo a contact email asking to reply here.

subscribing

First thing, the ticket I asked you to open was about the group frot page stats not updating in realtime, not about the our discussion about adding more revisors, which is something we already reached a consensus. BTW, we have 3 admins not only me.

Please note that you mentioned on your topic from 2009 (!!!), which resulted in another 3 new revisors to the list, why are you suggesting us to keep an eye in a discussion that is long dead?

About your other links that you mentioned, one is a poll that you created with only 21 votes (the group has 487 members and over 120 contributors), the other is the proper place where we are discussing it and the other is the wiki page I created to list the people interested in becoming an revisor.

And to make everything cristal clear for the people who don't follow our list/group, lets remember that at the beginning you're complaining that we only had 3 revisors, while the actual number is the double of it. Again, everyone already agreed that we should add more revisors and we are already reviewing the candidates, so what is the point of this ticket?

Finally, I see that you've complained in several places (by commenting on posts/sending e-mails) about my lack of response during the weekend, I think I don't even have to comment on that, don't you agree?

And about you're complain about lack of response today, not sure if you know but I'm on PDT and it's currently 7am here (it was 6:50am when I started writing this).

Unegro, I see that most of your contributions to this discussion here, in l.d.o and in the drupal-br list has been trollish, just repeating what I said before, please refrain yourself from making more personal aggressions.

Fabiano, although unegro behavior is not what we should expect from a contributor, neither is yours as an administrator. The arguments you have presented in localize.drupal.org were personal and meant to demoralize the efforts of unegro as a contributor, clearly ignoring the typos you have highlighted come from a encoding bug while importing the po files (the typos all happen right before a diacritic).

As a member of the Brazilian community, although not a contributor to the translation efforts, I feel sorry for the point we have reached. The personal arguments and bashing you have played are not new to the community, and although you have pointed out there are more administrators, all of them work with you at Chuva, the Drupal shop you own.

For the sake of our community you should at least name one more administrator, since there are ongoing calls for more revisors but ever since the calls have started none has been given proper permissions, although several voluntaries named themselves.

Please think twice about your role as a community leader and administrator at localize.drupal.org. Free and Open Source project development depends on a happy and strong community. Trolling, bashing and demoralizing other users is not the proper way to achieve that.

(I have consulted Gabor on changing the project and component of this issue, since l10n_server is not the proper place for community discussion regarding localize.drupal.org.)

UPDATE: I mistook ndovo for unegro in the l.d.o bashing episode mentioned above. ndovo was the one starting the thread and was bashed, unegro was just another member of the community venting his frustration. In the same topic there are indeed several comments frustrated with wundo (Fabiano) behavior, and a few examples.

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@barraponto said everything that needed to be said.

I'm here to say that many members of the brazilian community are disapproving @wundo's behavior in this case, but doesn't know enough about english language to come here complain about @wundo's attitude.

Just updating here for the non-portuguese speaking, we had another 3 revisors added to the project.

Moving it to the pt-br project.

@pedrorocha, I have to disagree with you. If they don't know enough english to express themselves here, how can they be complaining about the translation reviewing process?!

I must have lost something of the discussion, because I have seen many members wanting to work as reviewers, but I dont remember anyone wanting to be an admnistrator. I think is very dificult to @wundo elect someone to work. I'll be honest, even if I had conditions, I would not want to get the house in flames.

There must be a change, from what I saw, no one disagrees, but I suggest one step at a time, pulling out current admins and reviewers, in a behavior like a riot only has room to give shit and discourage those who want to help.

If everyone can give their opinion here's mine, @wundo, soon you will have added more reviewers, the list is quite large and I think enough to put the house in order.
Being made the revisions, with the work on day and with cool mind, we can see if the administration needs to be modified. It makes no sense to turn the tables and point fingers now, I think everyone here wants to see the thing working, I intend to see this in the messages.

Update: Are nine reviewers now, see http://localize.drupal.org/node/3624

@hmayer, thanks. To me this looks like it's getting somewhere. I agree, there is no need to make any more flame-wars and harsh comments. There is a lot of reviewers there now, let's give it a month or so to see if there is any change, and if not, we keep going a friendly and collaborative discussion about how to get that quality translation we all want.

Keep it cool.

If there is an agreement we can RTBC this issue.

It still needs work since we don't have new administrators, although one has volunteered from the community.

And while we are at it, of course any Brazilian developer or user can complain about the translation process, since they depend on it for their work. Pretending their complaints are worthless is the kind of behavior that led to this situation.

I'm returning the issue to Webmasters queue, since the lack of an independent administrator is at issue. Also, what is the point in moving this issue to an issue queue abandoned since localize.drupal.org became central to any translation work? Not to mention the pt-br mantainer is wundo himself and the last issue in the queue, 30 weeks old, is a complaint on string revisions.

Fabiano and I assumed the maintenance of this project years ago, back at Drupal 5 when there were almost no contributors. In the last few months, there has been a surge in the number of contributors and translations and being in this transitional period from a smaller community of contributors to a larger community of contributors may have made some people quite anxious about the work on localize.

But anyway, let's try to be a bit pragmatic here.

What's being asked? More agility in revisions, and for that, more reviewers. This has been done:

* We've published on l.d.o board a list of reviewers, so that this whole thing is clearer for everyone.
* New reviewers have been added on l.d.o. New reviewers may be added depending on the quality of their work.
* We the reviewers are collaborating to attack these amount of pending suggestions and we're scheduling a sprint to deal with it.

I am thankful for this project mantainers efforts, as I'm sure the whole community is. The behavior shown in response to critics has hurt the community, but it's not a reason to forget how much the mantainers have done for the community as a whole.

However, given the pressure the community had to come up in order to see our new revisors added, new administrators on localize.drupal.org are needed. This is something the community as a whole feels, and is expressed in our forum. Giving the appointed member the proper permissions and role as administrator should be an easy task.

I hope we can settle this with a new administrator and resume our work, respecting every contributor that shows up from now on.

Fellows, what will result of this discussion ?

Nothing, more than 20 days(in portuguese) and no real change. No reason to translate if it take months to be aproved, and no way to change, since all admins are from same company.

yukare, around a 1000 suggestions were processed last week.

Yukare, I strongly disagree to your assumption. We are aware of the issues, and we are responding to them. The big issue here was about getting new reviewers and clearing the translations queue, right?

* New reviewers have been enabled, and we now have 9 people in charge of reviewing the queue of suggestions.
* The queue has now 14 thousand suggestions. That's one thousand suggestions less from the beginning of the week (when this issue was posted) to now.
* The reviewers have agreed to have a sprint to approve suggestions. This should be a solution for the big suggestion queue.

All of this is hardly "no change".

Considering that there is now progress, there is no need to continue the discussion in the webmasters' queue. Please continue to discuss on l.d.o.

There's a call for a new admin for localize.drupal.org, but none of the current admins have responded to it. It is a sad thing to notice that though they are fully aware of the issue, they are resisting the addition of a new admin.

This issue is here to ask for webmasters to add afeijo as a new admin, since the current admins won't do it regardless of the community decision.

Sorry, but this ticket is about the number of strings waiting for revision, not a new admin.

Nice try, but that's not the real issue. It's a symptom. If believe barraponto wants the Webmasters -which are not here to "fix" the number of suggestions - to add the new admin.

The original title of the issue was "Brazilian Portuguese has 15000 sugestions awaiting approval (The admin thinks he is the owner of localize pt-BR)" but it was changed by wundo himself in an attempt to dismiss the case. The 15000 suggestions awaiting are, of course, a problem for our own community to solve — no webmaster will translate strings into Brazilian Portuguese.

Though the issue at hand is whether the reviewers and admins will listen to the community at all. Adding new reviewers took several months, and it had to be brought here to the Webmasters issue queue in order to build up enough pressure, otherwise the admins might just sit on the issue.

Thus we have claimed for a new admin to be added to the current ones. It has been appointed and has received support from the community (see our forum). I ask for the Webmasters to add afeijo as a new admin for the Brazilian Portuguesue group in localize.drupal.org

@unegro,

First of all, the number of suggestions is not the main issue. Rather, it's the current delay on translation workflow. There are many bad suggestions, and there are good ones. The point is that they are not getting properly processed. Some reviewers forget to decline bad/reject translations, etc. What is really needed is a long-term sustaintable workflow. We might run a hard sprint with reviewers and get all suggestions processed, but what about quality? And what about the future work? Those need to be assured as well.

So there is now a pending work to do regarding administration of the group. That's a practical solution suggested by the community, and once it is done, we'll have to wait, analyze and keep demanding the work that needs to be done by admins and reviewers.

I urge all, however, to refrain from flaming and personally - and passionately - attacking the current administration. This is not healthy for the community. Let's keep reasonable and work our way objectively towards the common goal of having Drupal translated.

New reviewers have been added. The community has chosen a new administrator to be added to the group. The reason the current admins are resisting to accept that are unknown. But it is the only thing left for this issue to be closed. It will make adding reviewers easier, as well.

Let's be honest: this discussion has drifted from an actual request of agility in the reviewing process to a completely unnecessary power struggle. "The admin thinks he is the owner of localize pt-BR" is an unfortunate choice of words, to say the least.

I really don't believe afeijo is a suitable choice. He's contributed less than 270 suggestions to localize and therefore doesn't have a solid history of being a translation contributor. He's just began participating in the board very recently, after his name was brought up to fill in the position. Yes, he's participative in the IRC channel and has ties with the community, but strictly speaking, he doesn't have strong ties with the translation.

I understand the frustration some people have expressed, but I don't believe who is the admin should be an issue here. The need for a bigger reviewer team was a real issue, and has been properly tackled.

@wundo: several community members have backed afeijo as an admin. It is clear you disagree, but you should respect what the community says. Since you don't, this issue stays open until a Webmaster adds afeijo as a new admin for localize.drupal.org

let's be honest, why someone would translate anything while we have a queue of 15k waiting to be reviewed??

second, what one thing has to do with the other? If the admin need to translate, I don't see you in the top 10 translators.

I do really think we need a lot more reviewers. Nine is a poor number for a large community as the Brazilian and the amount of new strings added so often.

The reviewing process needs to be a lot faster and that's the kernel of the problem. It can only be accomplished with more good reviewers.

As I can see, another problem discussed in this topic is the attribution of new translation admins. Eventually we will sure need other admins, but since the current admins are acting in the good for the community, giving permission to new reviewers as the community indicate these, I personally don't think we need a new admin right now.

I also volunteared to be a reviewer, no return regarding that so far

Nevertheless, I'm moving forward to translate drupal 7 core, less then 80 strings left, it was over 400 two weeks ago when I started

We simple need that someone from drupal.org add more people as admin, simple as that. More one week and still no change. What they will do is wait and wait until we think that nothing is gonna change, and this is happening.

I don't think the d.o webmasters can resolve your communications problems for you.

@afeijo, we didn't add you as reviewer because you didn't have suggestions so it wasn't possible for us to evaluate your translation skills.

@unegro we are not pushing to take wundo privileges away. We are instead asking for afeijo to be given the same administrative privileges, since the three current administrators work together at the same company and have been sitting on several requests for new reviewers and admins.

I know this is a delicate issue, but it is needed since we are enjoying a burst of collaboration in the community which we wouldn't like to dissipate due to bad administration. Having one more admin will help us get what we need done without the mediation of a sole company.

rolled back the title.

@unegro: avoid making this issue personal.

What you're implying is absurd, to say the least.

I've been lurking at this argue for some time.
I think the Brazilian Drupal Community needs localization to be more fluid, and for this we need less centralization.
All the admins being from the same company centralizes the decision power, and as we can see causes funneling and demotivation to contribution.

After all, isn't Drupal all about community and freedom?

Indeed, the community of brazil is facing a dilema. How can we let Drupal.org administrators know about our issues regarding the pt-br localize power monopoly?

Couldn't agree more with a lot of the opinions expressed here, particularly Barraponto's.

As a Brazilian Drupal developer it's very frustrating dealing with the lack of attention that is given by our companies so-called leaders. Translations take forever to get approval and despite the huge number of contributions, progress seems to be moving forward in slow motion.

There was once a day when the Brazilian Drupal community was not that large and outspoken and it was fine for a single company to control aspects such as translations and user groups but nowadays not only is this not necessary anymore but it is actually very detrimental to the entire community and collaboration that is so fantastic in the Drupal world.

I second this and all future motions to make the leadership of the Brazilian translations and all other groups more democratic.

Wundo, thanks for all your great work over the years but since you and your company don't have the time, patience or politeness necessary to handle these and other issues please step aside and let the community and people who actually want to invest time and make a difference take over.

Even though the issue is important it must have an end one day.
So how about solving it democratically? Let's do a poll: The community wants a new admin or not?

@tarcisiogf: we did discuss it at our google group. And we can sure have a poll.

Sure, +1 from me for new admin.

@alexweber take a look at the real numbers, in the past 10 days we've reviewed over 2k suggestion, I've been personally investing over 1,5 hours per day maintaining the l.d.o.

Sorry, but I don't think voting is the way to go here.

@afeijo just has no history of collaborating to the translation. He didn't even had suggestions before this whole discussion started. Why should he be an admin, if he hasn't shown interest in the project so far?

Seriously, things just shouldn't be about this insane politics game. Let's all stop these time-wasting power struggles. We ALL agree that new reviewers are needed. And yes, we ARE adding new reviewers to the board, it just can't be done indiscriminately, as it's being implied we should do.

As an outsider reading this conversation, I see people complain that there was no action for a long time on the part of the current admins. And then the current admins complain that they can't approve someone because they don't have a history of good translations.

It seems like there is a general lack of collaboration.

Perhaps a solution is that in the next 2 weeks the current admins will agree to review current translations - it seems this has already started which is great. And in doing that, they should also work to find more translators who are more "diverse" at different companies or who work with Drupal as a hobby instead of professionally. Distributing the effort to a diverse group of people is more likely to result in a consistent approval workflow since a diverse group is less impacted by the shocks that an individual company might (not to speculate on reasons for the buildup, just to point out an benefit of more reviewers and more diverse reviewers).

@wundo and any other admins, can you agree to that?

@afeijo, @barroponto, and others, can you agree to work in the current system to establish your skills in a way that lets

@wundo, I appreciate the effort, as I'm sure so does the rest of the community, but its really "too little too late".

Why the insistence on maintaining this stronghold on the translation management here? Don't you guys trust the community at all? I don't see what the problem is opening an extra admin spot outside of your company.

Please consider this for the good of the community there's no good reason why Chuva Inc and its employees have to be the sole ones in charge of this operation!

Let me start by stating I have no axe to grind in the outcome of this thread. I only know how to speak and read English.

In reading through this thread, though, I am embarrassed for the Drupal community as a whole. How the heck can 15k translation strings be allowed to fester unapproved for so long? It is a true embarrassment for the whole community!!

Like @greggles, I urge additional admins be assigned from outside Chuva Inc to smooth the approval workflow. I also concur that ideally the Brazilian community will attract more translators, who will receive feedback on their work in a near real-time basis. There is nothing more frustrating than doing the work and then simply waiting for feedback.

As I said, the current situation is an embarrassment to the whole Drupal community. Open-source projects depend on cooperation. I urge all involved in this thread to clean up their respective acts and play nice together.

@Lars, @greggles: I'm afraid the l.d.o permission levels are not clear for you. There are usually five levels of users on l.d.o:

- anonymous
- authenticated
- authenticated and member of a team (these people usually have permission to submit suggestions and contributed to the 15.000 suggestions)
- moderators of a team (these were lacking and many more were added on the pt-br team on response to this issue); depending on team setup, moderators might be further broken down to two levels (those who can approve their own stuff and those who can approve stuff from anybody else)
- admins of teams (these can appoint other admins and moderators, this did not change for pt-br in my understanding)

So there is no requirement to add admins to process suggestions, because there is a level of privilege inbetween admins and members who serve that purpose. The remaining reason to add admins would be if there is no trust for the admin to hand out power for the other levels on a timely or reasonable manner. For me at least this is pretty hard to tell without being actually involved with the team.

@greggles, I agree with your point, this is what happened. Earlier this year we had a spike in the number of contributors and when the current reviewers couldn't keep with the pace, some members started to complain about it. In July we agreed that we needed more reviewers.

We have already added 3 other people to the team and now we have 9 people reviewing the translation, and we are planning and add a couple more. Also, now that we have more people engaged, I feel I need to clarify some of the process involved on it, in other to reduce misunderstanding. This is why I've posted a topic about the selection process of new reviews (in portuguese, but you can google translate it: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fl... ), and also we (reviewers) are picking a good date to have a translation sprint, I've organized one of those last year and I think it was really good.

Even with all these measures we have to keep in mind that it will take a while to process all the pending suggestions. I know several of the contributors disagree with that but IMHO we must have quality in the translation strings over quantity.

@Gábor: I agree with you when you say that "the remaining reason to add admins would be if there is no trust for the admin to hand out power for the other levels on a timely or reasonable manner". I think, however, that the actions I've outlined above have proved otherwise.

@Alex: please note that none of the new moderators is a Chuva Inc. employee. The admins are from Chuva Inc. only because we're the one who have been doing this for a long time. Drupal is a do-ocracy. José and I were working together in the pt-br translation since 2007, even before he became my partner at Chuva Inc. And Danillo has been one of the most active members in the pt-br community for over a year. It would be the same if you complained that Acquia has the "stronghold" on Drupal core maintenance, or that Lullabot has the stronghold of documentation... They're just the ones doing the job.

hi Martin,

You have a point, I had low history. Actually, I had about 50 translations that I did last year.
Since I noticed that the reviews wasn't been done and none translations was been approved, I stopped. I asked about it on the channel, and I didn't had good return about the situation.
Would you keep translating if it would be just be ignored? The waiting list of 15k translations remains.

To support the current community effort to solve this problem, I resumed translating. And by request of @wundo, I'm translating drupal 7 core, it has under 80 strings to finish now.

sure greggles, sound good, I agree

more action less whining :)

@afeijo: fortunately enough, the 15k is no longer. We're at 13k suggestion now. :)

Good, all this noise the community did last month awake the reviewers :p

I hope it will endure

@greggles I entirely agree with your point. That's it.

@lars as for me, I do feel ashamed too. Not only for this be happening in the Drupal community but for being happening among my kinsman.

@wundo I strongly disagree when you claim you at Chuva Inc are the only doing this so far. You may remember this same request have happened on Brazilian Drupal community before. At that time we, the community as a whole, disagree with the processes but never opened a request such as this one here at Drupal.org. You, as for that time (2 or 3 years ago) haven't granted access to the repository to anyone who requested. You should remember we've set up a l10n server when Bruno Massa has just created these modules (ln10_server and client) just because you and José San Matin have refused to add other maintainers to translation repository (at that time there is no l.d.o). So don't pretend nobody wanted to do the revision. A lot of us wanted it to happen before but nobody gave us access. You at Chuva are the only doing this so far because you have always refused to give permission to others since that time.

@gábor Your point is accurate. The situation with the admins is exactly the one you described i. e. "The remaining reason to add admins would be if there is no trust for the admin to hand out power for the other levels on a timely or reasonable manner."

@greggles: I abide by your suggestion. In fact, I'd like to reinforce it. The urge for new reviewers is not a recent movement, it is documented both in the l.d.o group and the pt-br issue queue. The diversity of companies taking care of this would make sure we had sufficient response in a timely manner. I hope we can agree on this.

@Gábor: "the remaining reason to add admins would be if there is no trust for the admin to hand out power for the other levels on a timely or reasonable manner". This is precisely the case, since the behavior of wundo as a community manager has been embarassing. We have lost translators and there are posts in our l.d.o. group (see #6) and our google groups discussing this extensively. Also, this thread is filled with such behavior (see #4 #6 and #25).

Finally, Drupal is a do-ocracy. By letting 15k suggestions waiting for reviews, our current admins have taken away the possibility for anyone else to actually do the work. The Brazilian community has picked afeijo as an addition to the current admins, since we need this flexibility for do-ocracy to flow. New reviewers have been added, but it is no longer the issue here. The issue, as Gábor expressed it, is that "there is no trust for the admin to hand out power for the other levels on a timely or reasonable manner".

We already trust afeijo, and we know we can contact him on irc, googlegroups, l.d.o, etc. We expect him to respond in reasonable and timely manner. We also expect him to add new admins when needed, without any of this hassle. We are sorry we had to come to the Drupal.org Webmasters to cry about this communications/politics issues, but it was a last resort. Every other mean has been tried before.

@rfsbsb:
I didn't mean that we at Chuva are the only ones doing this so far. In fact, most of the suggestions have been made by the communnity, but indeed individually we've been some of the most active ones in the translation effort. For over a year, even though we have had reviewers not related to Chuva, we remained the most active.

The issue you mentioned from 2 or 3 years ago was mostly different: brmassa, you and a few others suggested that the best way to manage the translation effort would be having no reviewers at all, while I didn't agree with that. The two approaches were tried for a while.

As I've said before, IMHO we should aim quality over quantity. This approach can create a situation like the one that just happened, where the number of reviewers become the bottleneck. However, we have already put in motion a process to mitigate this bottleneck.

Also, it's not true that "only doing this so far because you have always refused to give permission to others since that time", before this issue started I privately invited two known members of the community to co-maintain the translation effort with us. Unfortunately, both pedrofaria and aleagi declined, because they were involved in other task forces from the drupal-br.org renovation that has been going on.

I would be glad to share the "burden" from maintaning l.d.o/pt-br with others, but an admin must be someone who has been actively involved with the project. Currently afeijo isn't that person, but since our first discussion on IRC, I saw that he has been contributing daily with the translation, and once he has enough experience I would be more than glad to enable him as a reviewer and after that as an admin.

So @wundo and all people from chuva inc will keep ignoring all the requests from all comunity? There is lots of messages in pt_br that Gabor do not know, this is not the first request to change things on l.d.o., and will not be the last, because if the people from drupal.org do not do anything, nothing gonna change.

@wundo: your comment makes me remember the real circumstances about the 2 or 3 years ago issue. There was a little about new maintainers but most of it was about revision. Sorry for that wrong part.

I'm glad you don't mean you guys are the only one who made things happen, that would be incorrect :-)

I'm also very concerned about translation quality, as you can notice by #34. And I can see you too. If you take a look at #34 you'll see my main concern is about speed up the revision of strings (not letting the quality aside).

As you said, you invited two guys in private. I couldn't know that. That's something very good you tried these guys. And I think another ones also should be invited.

I don't know alfeijo's work and I'm not questioning that. But I also think the one who would work as admin should have a good knowledge of the English language and also must have worked for a time in the revision queue. I think that just because someone who will add others to the revision duty should know how to do it very well.

That said, I reiterate what I said in #34. Other reviewers should be added to speed up the approval process. I also think someone you trust should be invited to be an admin, someone who is not from Chuva. I think with those two things this issue can be marked as finished. The process to choose new reviewers and admin also should be clear and I think @greggles suggestions are quite good to start.

I don't want to be rude, but can we set this as "fixed" already? All the webmasters get these mails...

Unfortunately not. Nothing has yet been executed as a solution. The situation is very embarrassing. Sorry Webmasters.

40 days after and we still need help from drupal.org people with this. After all this time and we still have 13659 strings awaiting revision, so you can see that you will have to do something, as the current status is about the same as when this started.

Also, even though we have asked for, no new admin has been added by the current admins.

From Mac_Weber on IRC I'm hearing the moderators added did not do a stellar job of working down those suggestions. Should more moderators be added? A translation sprint to be held?

Not just moderators, we need also more admins.

Right now, the admin power is centralized on the hands of a small group of pals (as comments #6 and #52).

We need to spread the power among other members on the community. Other groups, other individuals, other people who really are interested in getting engaged helping on translating.

We have many members complaining that do not feel motivated contributing because they don't see results on the end.
A short timeline:

06/03/2011 - a post on l.d.o asking about more moderators with 50+ comments.
07/13/2011 - a poll asking if we need more reviewers was created. 95% said 'yes'
07/15/2011 - people complain about having only 3 admins and ALL of them work for the same drupal shop
07/15/2011 - wundo created a wiki for people interested in joining the team
08/03/2011 - 3 new reviewers were added to the team.
08/09/2011 - All translation suggestions for Drupal core 7.7 were sent after a small unscheduled translation sprint on #drupal-br

After 24 days ZERO reviews were done on D7.7

It is clear, we need both more reviewers and more admins.

@Gábor Hojtsy, why not add @afeijo as "admins of teams"?

First, it is clear we need more moderators. To get this team we need someone who knows the community and do it not biased. Wundo is right getting people he trust and know well, this is very important for the quality of the work done, but we need more people from the whole community joining now.

@afeijo, besides his not so big contribution to translations (many reasons for that, such as unmotivated by not getting translations reviewed), he IS a great contributor to the community as a whole. Everybody at #drupal-br knows him. He is 6+ hours per day at IRC actively helping everybody there (#61), besides many other communication channels, so he knows everybody. He is able to lead the team.

Most people here who pointed afeijo as Admin of Teams don't even know him face to face (I don't). They pointed him because of his pro-activeness and knowledge about the Brazilan Drupal community.

We need more moderators.
Today's administration did a great work. However, right now they are not able to get a team to do the job in a timely manner.
Then, we need more administrators to help building a bigger moderator team.

@Mac_Weber, you've missed two dates:

08/03/2011 - I've posted we'd be selecting another reviewers and urged the interested people to update the wikipage
08/05/2011 - took a snapshot from the wiki page and started reviewing the suggestions submitted by the interested people, (based in the process specified here)

In that post I've estimated we'd have new reviewers by end of august, but given the DrupalCon we're a little bit behind the schedule.

Today, after a few days of reviewing the translations made by the candidates, we've decided to grant reviewing permissions to three more people and I will be publishing the list on localize.drupal.org later today.

Wundo, thanks a lot for adding more reviewers. We are asking for new admins, though. We have already asked several times in our forum, and now we came to ask the Drupal Webmasters since we do not believe you are ever going to listen to us. This issue is open and will be as long as all administrators for the Brazilian Portuguese group in localize.drupal.org are from the same company — your company, Chuva inc.

Please, abide by our decision and add afeijo as a new admin.

@unegro Drupal core 7.8 is 100% translated to pt-BR.
"Suggestions" does not mean "Untranslated."

@wundo and @barraponto, I think there is a misunderstand from both parts.

I did not talk to wundo about it, but I think that when he said @afeijo is not a suitable choice, he was talking about the moderator position. I don't think he would be a good pick for this job, too. I've been reviewing his suggestions, and there are a lot of minor mistakes that are not expected from reviewers. He is still a great contributor for translations and we need more people like him. Moderators are there to fix these mistakes.

On the other hand, I still believe afeijo would be a good pick for Admin. Yet not a good choice for moderator, he has the needed skills for admins. He can help creating and participating of high level translation discussions, and he can aggregate and motivate a number of people helping on translations. I trust him to manage a translation group.

Some people could argue an admin should have higher language skills than moderators. However, remember that coaches normally cannot do what the athletes do.

Admins and moderators are different roles. Then, they need different skills.

Yet statistics show wundo should had done something earlier, he just added 6 new moderators (reviewers) on the last 2 months. It is very difficult to evaluate people for this position. Wundo pays strong attention to translation quality, not quantity.

Now wundo has to push that people to work hard. What most people here think afeijo would do as an admin.

@Mac_Weber I wholeheartedly agree with you. We endured some months when our reviewers couldn't get the job done (they were few and were busy) and at the same time our administrators couldn't pick new reviewers fast enough. Now that wasn't the time to be picky, for we can edit the translations later on (we are actually used to it).

And let's make clear we are not on a campaign to throw off wundo from group administration. We want to add afeijo, since wundo clearly can't do the job all by himself or with his colleagues at Chuva inc.

Afeijo as admin NOW! We are tired of waiting. We (the community) are not interested in endless arguments, the current adm, not to do so. It is not a favor. It is a request from the community. This must end.

Just a quick update:
* the number of pending suggestions is down to 65% of the original value
* Drupal 7 and several key modules are now 100% translated
* we have now 12 reviewers
* we will have a translation sprint during DrupalCamp Foz

@wundo: thanks for the hard work. We are asking for a new admin. Can you deliver?

@barraponto, I already replied your request earlier in this thread.

From #62:

I would be glad to share the "burden" from maintaning l.d.o/pt-br with others, but an admin must be someone who has been actively involved with the project. Currently afeijo isn't that person, but since our first discussion on IRC, I saw that he has been contributing daily with the translation, and once he has enough experience I would be more than glad to enable him as a reviewer and after that as an admin.

@wundo: so we (the Brazilian Drupal community) will have to wait for your evaulation of afeijo's work both as a translator and as a reviewer, is that it? It's been 1.5 months since that answer. Will we have to ping every other week to know whether you're happy with his work? It's hard to accept that you are deliberately standing against something the community decided collectively.

wundo: respect the community's requests, even if you disagree. Please, add afeijo and put an end to this question. All limits of arguments, time, patience, education and chivalry have been exceeded.

Webmasters from D.O, we will really need to create a fork from the Localize just to be able to translate Drupal to our language in a more "community centered" way?

Will need to fork the "Localization Update" module too, of course.

Really seems like a good thing to do, fork the project, split the community, just because one person is considering that his opinion must prevail despite everyone else opinions. It's exactly the kind of "community value" that we expect from a open source project, right?

Just a quick update for those who do not follow our brazilian mailing list, I've been quiet in this thread because we're discussing the matter in a e-mail thread Pedro Rocha started.

It does not matter anymore.

Moving this issue to the new l.d.o project.

I corrected the number of translations, it's not 1500 its 15000.

Just to keep it live, more 2 years in this discussion and nothing is done, 19 months now without any active work from the companny that owns localize in Brazil(wundo and it employes).

No new admin after all this time. Maybe i have to create a new issue: "Create a new language on l.d.o, Portuguese(Brazil) Community."

All right, I granted @yukare the admin role. I'm sorry you cannot communicate with each other. Pretty sad. Now its in your hands to grant more admins.

Hello Gábor,

I'm sorry to disagree, this is not a communication issue. This is a matter of qualification.

Me and Fabiano have been conducting the translation to Brazilian Portuguese since 2007, when it was utterly abandoned.

When Localization Server was created and before l.d.o was launched, we've quickly setup an installation on our server and opened up that for the community. When l.d.o was launched, we've kept up a thorough work on it. As you can see, I am myself one of the most prolific translators and I one of the most active reviewers as well.

When this thread was started, there were lots of negative opinions towards the translation process, regarding the small number of reviewers, which have been quickly addressed. We have conducted three processes of adding new reviewers, increasing the number to 14 people. They come from various companies in Brazil (and I should add that this includes people who have previously complained in this thread). These people have been select based on their contribution and the quality of their translations.

Yukare has an utterly uncomprehensible animosity toward us. One cause of this animosity, I presume, is the fact that he has been rejected from becoming a reviewer, which we have done, on purely technical grounds. Despite his praisable and significant amount of translations, many of them lack quality and are ridden with bad grammar, false cognates, orthography errors and other issues. We want reviewers that are able to ensure the quality of the outcome, not just quantity.

He constantly accuses me and Fabiano of using the translation to make ourselves money, and other conspiracy theories. How would that even be possible, I wonder? If one figures out that kind of business model, I'd love to hear about.

I do not believe yukare is suited to be an admin. He lacks the necessary language skills and clearly lack a collaborative behavior required for a administrative role.

Gábor, I understand that you just want to put an end to this insufferable thread, but I don't believe this is a good way to conclude things is to promote someone whose only qualification is to be stubborn enough. Please, reconsider.

Best regards,

José

The fact that the last response from team leads on the issue is from 2011 October with "I've been quiet in this thread because we're discussing the matter in a e-mail thread Pedro Rocha started." does not help to give a picture that the team leads are engaged in the discussion supporting whoever comes around to contest that.

I did not revoke any permissions for anybody, so feel free to adjust your team permissions as it is appropriate.

Thanks a lot @Gábor Hojtsy. My comments on #17, #24 and #27 outline the issue and link to community decisions regarding adding @afeijo as a new admin to the project.

I'm not sure why Yukare was added as admin, but I welcome it, believing he will listen to the community where the other administrators haven't.

And btw, @José San Martin, there is money to be made from promoting our contributions to free and open source softwares. That's the reason there's such a thing as a /drupalgive page on several companies websites, and why Chuva's /drupalgive page starts with asserting the company "contributes to and maintains a number of popular Drupal themes and modules, as well as the Portuguese Translation of the core Drupal project". We've all been there and done that :D

This is not fixed, and as it is, will not be fixed never, as people from d.o prefer to make what chuva want than listen all the comunitty. I will unfollown this issue and leave the translation, and i really hope someday drupal becomes more "comunity" and less "company".

Note: i do not care about being an admin, i just want someone that is not from chuva being one. Maybe afeito, barraponto, Mac_Weber, any of they will be a good choose.

@yukare can't you add @afeijo? He's up to it, and you have been given the proper permissions by @Gábor Hojtsy.

@yukare, exactly, just add these guys as admins please and let's be done with this long, sad thread. thanks!

Hello @barraponto,

How have you been?

I'm sorry, but I'd like to reiterate that the idea that Localize is some sort of cash cow is profoundly flawed.

My company maintains a string of modules, one of them in the top 10, another in the top 50, and also a theme on the top 10, plus an pretty strong client portofolio.

We don't cling to the translation as a source of money, as we are well-established enough in Brazilian and International market. I'm not sure if someone less established, or a freelancer, would try to boast translation admin credentials, but it's not our case.

If you took the time to check http://chuva-inc.com.br/drupalgive, we only briefly mention the Translation as one of our contributions, and we are strong contributors and I'm the second most prolific translator independently of the maintainer status. This is what counts.

I don't really care whether Chuva-inc profits from being the sole administrators of the Brazilian Portuguese translation or not. What I do care is that there is community pressure for a new administrator, and none of the current administrators will add the community selected new administrator.

@Gabór, can you please add @afeijo to the admins? @Yukare won't be able to do it, since his administrative privileges have already been revoked.

@José San Martin: what is your take on that?

Hello @Gábor Hojtsy,

afeijo seems to be no longer very active as a translator, he only had a rush of activity by the time there has been a suggestion for him to be administrator. About this, I stand by what I've said on https://drupal.org/comment/4813160#comment-4813160

This thread started mainly as a honest (albeit written in a quite angry way) demand for new reviewers. We have responded and added new reviewers, always making sure to keep up the quality in the translation.

After that, this devolved in a sterile and insistent request to add a new administrator in a very takeover-ish way, for no reason besides some "I want to" and some bogus accusations about Chuva profiteering on the translation.

Bottom line: what is this all about? What would @afeijo add up to this project? What is his plan to improve translation? What would he do? If there are good suggestions, we're open to hear, but that's not what we've had so far.

It's not meant to be take-over-ish, as the request is to add a new admin, not replace the current admins. The reason for a new admin is that the project, right now, is administered by members of a single company (#40), and their response time to demands of the community is subject to how busy they are with their day jobs. Centralization does hurt the translation effort (#43 and #45).

Now @Gábor Hojtsy puts it in other terms in #54 (emphasis added by myself):

So there is no requirement to add admins to process suggestions, because there is a level of privilege inbetween admins and members who serve that purpose. The remaining reason to add admins would be if there is no trust for the admin to hand out power for the other levels on a timely or reasonable manner.

That's indeed the case. As explained by @rfsbsb in #60, this is not the first time we struggle to add new reviewers and administrators. It has happend before in other channels, particularly our very own Drupal-BR Google Groups. Forking has been suggested several times, including this thread, due to centralization, lack of response and bad manners.

Yet I'd like to reinstate what I said in #76:

And let's make clear we are not on a campaign to throw off @wundo from group administration. We want to add @afeijo, since wundo clearly can't do the job all by himself or with his colleagues at Chuva inc.

The request to add @afeijo as admin was backed by the community (#31, #75, #77, #82, #93 and of course thread after thread on our Drupal-br GoogleGroups -- the latter link is a poll).

Yet @wundo and @José San Martin decision is to overrule the community decision of adding @afeijo as a new admin. That's a power struggle, and that's the reason this issue is still open.

@Gábor Hojtsy, @wundo, @José San Martin: can the community have its appointed member (@afeijo, not @yukare) added as a new, extra, not-going-to-replace-nor-revoke-anyone administrator?

The job of the admin is basically one: add reviewers.

(there are other jobs that help to create a healthy translation community, such as help create a dictionary and organize sprints, but they don't need to be performed by an admin. Yet, guess what: me and Fabiano have done those things too)

This thread has started as a honest albeit emotionally loaded request to add new reviewers. And this has been done: we have 15 reviewers now, which have been carefully selected through a process in which we've analyzed the work of people who want to become reviewers.

We are very serious about selecting good reviewers, because this is ultimately what assures a good translation. This is not something I believe that should be changed.

So, when you say "clearly can't do the job all by himself", this is blatantly not true.

Remember, Drupal is a do-ocracy. (and you, barraponto, with 19 translations registered on the system, should be a bit more aware of that) Making a pool and choosing a friend won't get them co-mainteiner of Views module. I don't see why this should be different here.

I would obviously have no problem with more people stepping up to help coordinate and manage the translation, but there are right ways to do that and this thread is not one of them.

As you've said yourself, the sole job of an admin is adding more reviewers. The Brazilian Drupal community (including myself) has its reasons to believe the current administrators won't respond in a timely manner when there's a need for more reviewers (see above). But I insist: the sole job of an admin is adding more reviewers. In a way, I think it means the admin doesn't need to be a productive translator nor reviewer. Even then, @afeijo was not selected for being a friend, but for his contributions (translations included) and his presence and participation in community matters. Being able to respond to community issues really matters.

Also, while Drupal is a do-ocracy, Drupal.org and Localize.drupal.org technologies are not. No one will get automatically promoted once a certain number of strings are translated or reviewed. This thread is a last resort: community meetings and our own forums were not enough to make it clear that the community wants to add a new admin.

We have time and again argumented that running a community project under a single company makes it vulnerable to that company workload, as might have happened before (there was no explanation to the delays in adding new reviewers nor the denial in adding some that stepped up). The current administrators' criteria for adding new administrators (and reviewers) is at mismatch with those of the community.

You can solve this issue by granting another administrator trust: it's not as if @afeijo is going to hijack the project or jeopardize the quality of reviews. Let him step up to help the project and let it be a statement that you acknowledge the community decision.

On a separate note, trying to discredit my arguments by stating I have "only" 19 strings translated is hardly the behavior we expect from open soruce project administrators. Not only is every contribution valuable, but it should be highlighted that I'm not trying to get any kind of privileges here.

I'm a Brazilian Drupal developer and rely on Drupal contributed translation and the l.d.o system as a whole, including its community. I am also a community supporter, having helped several developers become experienced contributors.

I'd love for this issue to be solved with a display of trust, lest this fiasco keeps embarassing our community and shying new contributors from joining our efforts.

Barraponto, I'm pretty sure you are an active and productive member of our Drupal community. I would never try to disqualify you as such.

One thing you are not, though, is an active translator in the localize and, therefore, I question why you should be choosing maintainers for a Drupal project you don't contribute to.

Friendly reminder: you are warmly welcome to contribute to the translations of modules you user and increase that number! :)

I am not choosing a maintainer myself, it was a documented decision by the community. See links above.

The reason I (and many others) need maintainers who can respond quickly to any pressing issue is that we all rely on the contributed translation effort. That's also the reason we have been resisting the calls to fork the effort.